at Jill Alexander's home in CFalls
A somewhat randomly decided upon NPR podcast on decision making to start our wheels turning:
https://one.npr.org/?sharedMediaId=490989663:490990032
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Contributions to read/view beforehand:
Mitch's:
There was a desire, at the last banter, to tackle a science oriented topic as a change of pace from art, literature, philosophy etc.
Isaac's:
Article from The British Psychological Association, Research Digest, "Reduced Neural Empathy for Women Wearing Revealing Clothes" by Christian Jarrett, Feb. 2018, https://digest.bps.org.uk/2018/02/06/reduced-neural-empathy-for-women-wearing-revealing-clothes/
The
participants watched women being rejected in a ball-passing game (the black blocks over their eyes did not appear in the actual study); from Cogoni
et al 2018
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Sabine's:
One to evoke damp-eyed response: TEDxUppsalaUniversity, "Reason Leads to Conclusion, Emotion Leads to Action" with Malin Forsgren, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYj5Ulr2aFU
One to provoke chuckling: TED2016, "Inside the Mind of a Master Procrastinator" with Tim Urban, https://www.ted.com/talks/tim_urban_inside_the_mind_of_a_master_procrastinator
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Kirk's:
As I understand it bad decisions are often caused by hubris, so it is important to know that humans are ¨not-so-different¨ from our cousins in the animal world.
https://hbr.org/2018/01/3-ways-to-improve-your-decision-making.
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Contributions to read/view beforehand:
Mitch's:
There was a desire, at the last banter, to tackle a science oriented topic as a change of pace from art, literature, philosophy etc.
Unfortunately, none of us are neurobiologists (I don’t think?). This topic is, especially, overwhelming because, at first glance, it seems so narrow and specialized.
Since I know others are struggling, and I am one of the first to post, I am taking the liberty to try to help frame the discussion.
If I am taking this down a path that is not of interest to you, just disregard me and come with your unique materials. What I love about this group is that we almost always have good discussions even when (especially, because?) each individual comes at the topic from a completely different perspective.
If someone knows the neurobiology of the brain, in depth, that will be great to bring to the banter, but I don’t think the intent is that we all, individually, dive into research on how neurons fire in the pre-frontal cortex when making a decision. That would be more of a lecture series than a banter. There is room, even with this topic, to bring in our own personal experience and thoughts and opinions. When we leave, maybe, we will have enlightened ourselves on practical applications from making more conscious decisions through awareness of how our brains process them.
There is a risk that we will find ourselves diving into ‘Free Will’, which he have covered, in several different formats. We should try to re-frame those discussions more into the science of subconscious versus conscious decision making. Granted, that comes dangerously close to the question of whether or not we act at our own discretion, but I think we can determine when our discussions veer into philosophy and become incompatible with the science topic (see what I did there?).
Focus on the science of the brain and not the philosophy of the ‘mind’. If this topic was on the heart, we would be discussing how the heart works as a muscular pump, and not about how it is the source of the ‘soul’. Be a reductionist, focus on a part of the brain or a part of decision making, and we’ll bring it into the larger context.
Don’t focus just on big decisions (career changes, moves, life partners etc.). The brain is a decision making machine and, with the exception of the autonomic processes, everything it does is, arguably, a decision.
Here are a few angles that may be in line with the topic without you having to take a crash course in neuroscience to find a contributions.
- What biological processes make us ‘feel' some decisions in the gut, heart and head?
- How did the brain evolve to make decisions (reptilian vs. mammalian brain)?
- When does our biology force us, unconsciously, into poor or irrational decisions?
- How do you make decisions? How much of that do you think you are, truly, processing consciously?
- Are all decisions just an evolutionary/biological processing of risk vs. reward?
- How and where in the brain are subconscious vs. conscious decisions made?
- Can we make better decisions if we are more aware of how our biology is contributing to them?
- What are the literal chemical and biological processes involved in decision making?
Anyway, I hope that helped. My contribution follows...I picked it because I like the guy's beard:
Isaac's:
Article from The British Psychological Association, Research Digest, "Reduced Neural Empathy for Women Wearing Revealing Clothes" by Christian Jarrett, Feb. 2018, https://digest.bps.org.uk/2018/02/06/reduced-neural-empathy-for-women-wearing-revealing-clothes/
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Sabine's:
One to evoke damp-eyed response: TEDxUppsalaUniversity, "Reason Leads to Conclusion, Emotion Leads to Action" with Malin Forsgren, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYj5Ulr2aFU
One to provoke chuckling: TED2016, "Inside the Mind of a Master Procrastinator" with Tim Urban, https://www.ted.com/talks/tim_urban_inside_the_mind_of_a_master_procrastinator
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Kirk's:
I find the contributions on the blog website so far are very interesting and frame a discussion that everyone can make a contribution. Who has not had to make a big decision at some point in their lives?
This second contribution is from the Harvard Business School. It says we
should judge possible outcomes statistically, based on the best available
information and if we do not know statistics go online to Khan Academy.
Humans, potentially have a great advantage over animals, who have to use just their own experience or the experience their family group.
https://hbr.org/2018/01/3-ways-to-improve-your-decision-making.
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Annette's:
Though so many strong thoughts have come to me while turning this topic, what keeps returning is the idea of seeing/looking at or for the mountain from afar (abstract and metaphorical) vs being on the mountain (physical) and what decisions are required (or not) respectively.
Our decisions are influenced by, and often based on, what we have learned through experience, repetition, our physical reality, problem solving, deduction and what we perceive to be true (and I'll throw in the ol' gut and heart for myself).
“Mist around a mountain: all reality is there.” ― Marty Rubin
Being on the mountain as experienced by mountaineer, Ed Viesturs http://www.slate.com/blogs/thewrongstuff/2010/06/14/into_thin_error_mountaineer_ed_viesturs_on_making_mistakes.html
Seeing/looking at or for the mountain from afar as experienced by me from the great windows of Skamania Lodge:
I was on an overnight just outside of Portland in The Gorge on the Washington side. It was a rainy, stormy foggy cloudy time. I went running in the mud, listening to a dreamier version of a running playlist I had made.
I went to write and to be alone, to listen and see.
As I looked across the mighty Columbia - which I could not see - into the deep magical white swirling low clouds, that were covering the mountains, the straight ups from deep cuts - which I could not see - I was thinking, if I had not seen the mountains before, I would not know that they were there behind that white. If I was driving down the Gorge I would think what a strange an magical place, a road alongside myth. They say there is a wide and windy river and a hungry mountain and the greenest green. This winding road is still captivating, puts me in a world, swallows me, but the open Gorge is bigger and makes me feel like a bird.
AGNES OBEL "The Curse"
AGNES OBEL "The Curse" Lyrics
And the people went into their hide, they oh
From the start they didn't know exactly why, why
Winter came and made it so all look alike, look alike
Underneath the grass would grow, aiming at the sky
It was swift, it was just, another wave of a miracle
But no one, nothing at all would go for the kill
If they called on every soul in the land, on the moon
Only then would they know a blessing in disguise
The curse ruled from the underground down by the shore
And their hope grew with a hunger to live unlike before
The curse ruled from the underground down by the shore
And their hope grew with a hunger to live unlike before
Tell me now of the very souls that look alike, look alike
Do you know the stranglehold covering their eyes?
If I call on every soul in the land, on the moon
Tell me if I'll ever know a blessing in disguise
The curse ruled from the underground down by the shore
And their hope grew with a hunger to live unlike before
And the curse ruled from the underground down by theshore
From the start they didn't know exactly why, why
Winter came and made it so all look alike, look alike
Underneath the grass would grow, aiming at the sky
It was swift, it was just, another wave of a miracle
But no one, nothing at all would go for the kill
If they called on every soul in the land, on the moon
Only then would they know a blessing in disguise
The curse ruled from the underground down by the shore
And their hope grew with a hunger to live unlike before
The curse ruled from the underground down by the shore
And their hope grew with a hunger to live unlike before
Tell me now of the very souls that look alike, look alike
Do you know the stranglehold covering their eyes?
If I call on every soul in the land, on the moon
Tell me if I'll ever know a blessing in disguise
The curse ruled from the underground down by the shore
And their hope grew with a hunger to live unlike before
And the curse ruled from the underground down by theshore
And their hope grew with a hunger to live unlike before
I kept thinking about how the body and its varying abilities is a part of decision making and for some this is a central life focus and others an occasional annoyance.
Me:
I've had very poor eyesight my entire life. Over the years I developed tools to help me decide what things were without the use of my eyes.
If I were to lose something in a bag, I would close my eyes and feel every object in the bag very patiently. Often, I would find the "lost" object in one or two rounds. Using my tactile skills, I could make a decision on what the object in my hand was, and if it was the one I was looking for. This was a more reliable option (and less anxiety inducing) than dumping the bag out on the floor and searching for the object by sight.
When I would wonder if something was made of glass or another material, I would immediately tap it to my teeth. Granted, this had it's roots in impulsivity, then grew to a compulsion-but it served a purpose. My teeth told a truth that my eyes could not-that the object in my hand was in fact made of glass or another substance.
There many times that I reached my hand into the bottom of a bag and went straight through a mushy pear or came out covered in red lipstick. This taught me to go slow and move gingerly. Although sometimes, that lost object WAS the pear or the lipstick!
I was able to decide what an object was using the tools that served me best and that had been honed over time.
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Jivan's:
Mitch asked the question, "How can we make better decisions if we are
aware how our biology is contributing to them?" I think the answer is
we don't know.
The neurobiologist sees all the neurons firing up in parts of the
brain, but what do they have to do with making a decision?
Aliens see cars on the earth making a right or left turn. "What
causes a car to make a right or left turn?" They abduct the car and
discover cylinders inside the engine. They celebrate like the
neuroscientists are doing these days. They are a little closer to the
answer but they haven't discovered the human being inside making the
turn.
How can I make better decisions? What is this "I" in the first place?
It seems to be a label for part of my mind that expands and
contracts. Sometimes it feels like "I" is the decider. Sometimes it
feels like the mind is the decider, especially when presented with a
chocolate chip cookie.
Will the neurobiologist ever find out what causes me to make a right
or left turn? NO. If they discover in the future a little being
inside my brain making the decisions, then they will have to find out
what causes the little being to make the decisions. They can never
know what I am feeling by looking at neurons.
Mitch asked the question, "How can we make better decisions if we are
aware how our biology is contributing to them?" I think the answer is
we don't know.
The neurobiologist sees all the neurons firing up in parts of the
brain, but what do they have to do with making a decision?
Aliens see cars on the earth making a right or left turn. "What
causes a car to make a right or left turn?" They abduct the car and
discover cylinders inside the engine. They celebrate like the
neuroscientists are doing these days. They are a little closer to the
answer but they haven't discovered the human being inside making the
turn.
How can I make better decisions? What is this "I" in the first place?
It seems to be a label for part of my mind that expands and
contracts. Sometimes it feels like "I" is the decider. Sometimes it
feels like the mind is the decider, especially when presented with a
chocolate chip cookie.
Will the neurobiologist ever find out what causes me to make a right
or left turn? NO. If they discover in the future a little being
inside my brain making the decisions, then they will have to find out
what causes the little being to make the decisions. They can never
know what I am feeling by looking at neurons.
Also, take a look at Thomas Nagel's "What is it like to be a bat?"
- Summary of it on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_it_Like_to_Be_a_Bat%3F
- Nagel's 17 page paper here: https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/cross_fac/iatl/activities/modules/ugmodules/humananimalstudies/lectures/32/nagel_bat.pdf
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