Friday, March 17, 2023

Banter 70: Our collective human fascination with the macabre - why? what purpose does it serve?

Goosebumps book series is targeted at 9-12 year old readers

Upcoming Topic: Our historical and current fascination with the macabre in stories/podcasts/children fables/myths/tv shows/etc. What purpose does it serve us to be drawn to the macabre vs. being propelled away from it?

Date: Saturday, April 22nd at 6pm

Host: at Sabine’s house

Zoom option: See email from 3/17


Materials to spend some time with to help you think further about the topic: 


From Chris: Seems like there's a link between our need for mythology and our fascination with crime thrillers, but I couldn't find anything directly in Joseph Campbell. To support Chris’ train of thought, I found this tracing our historic fascination pre-podcast with the macabre: https://www.ancient-origins.net/artifacts-ancient-writings/true-crime-0016921
   
The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, published 1886

Or, somewhat related, we can look to Carl Jung’s psychological concept of a shadow (the part of our psyche that harbours our darkest impulses). Here is a video explaining it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgLQWutNxKc

Here also is Joseph Campbell speaking about that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzYsi3SV1bY

Caravaggio’s painting of Medusa, 1597 (in the Uffizi, Florence, Italy)



From Sabine: Pretty basic, but not bad talking points on the topic: https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/559256/why-we-love-true-crime

If you haven’t listened to any True Crime podcasts yet, maybe try your hand at an episode from one of NPR’s many: https://www.npr.org/podcasts/2069/true-crime

Or, consider an episode of a recent, Seattle-based, fictional crime / detective series I binged on, The Killing (on Hulu), based on the original Danish series, Forbrydelsen. This is not an American phenomenon, as Scandinavian crime shows are considered the best by film snob sorts, referring to them as Scandi Noir. Hate the title of the American version of this show, but man the character development of the two detectives is so well done, as are the moody Seattle specifics.



If you only have time to review the materials briefly, I’d suggest Mitch’s SNL skit first, then the first YouTube video explaining Jung’s shadow self concepts, and maybe the ancient-origins website link to get more sense of this not being a contemporary neuroses or new development in humans.












Wednesday, February 8, 2023

Banter 69: Digital Life, from a philosophy perspective

Date: Thursday, Feb. 23 at 6pm

Host: Annette

Topic: Digital Life, from a philosophy perspective

Nathan Dufour Oglesby is a philosopher who also creates YouTube and TikTok videos with a comedic focus (Nathanology), such as this one on the etymology of "Superbowl." 


Epicureanism, an ancient Greek philosophy known for its lessons on material existence and pleasure-seeking, can also be applied to living well on social media and the internet. Nathan Dufour Oglesby (who likes to put the fun in philosophy) explains:

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220901-the-epicurean-guide-to-digital-life





Saturday, November 12, 2022

Banter 68: Is it possible to talk ourselves/others down from the ledge of extremism? How would this happen?

Friday, November 18th at 7pm

At Annette's house (Zoom option for out-of-towners)



Your trusty founder here: This topic did not get my vote & I even encouraged a friend or two to vote otherwise so we could talk of anything but this one. But, alas, the majority spoke. Why the aversion, the cognitive inflexibility, if you will? The answer is two- or threefold. 

From a banter perspective, we said from the start we would never talk politics for a topic in this group, since we can do that in plenty of other social circles if so inclined. From a personal perspective, I feel fatigued by extremism's plentiful nature currently on the world stage, so I'm not keen to fold it also into lovely, cozy banter nights. Also, I experience leaden-eyed despair when faced with the glazed over look of an extremist talking at you, or anyone glazed over talking, talking, talking & not engaged in anything like mutuality or curiosity. I fear that even talking about those who talk like this will feel akin to that glazed over look. And, lastly, my more ungrudging reason, I'm uncomfortable with the question itself. It seems to imply a hierarchy or a savior role, or one person in the right vs. the one tipping off the ledge, when aren't we all prone to these same mind conditions, these tendencies toward fairly massive cognitive distortions? And isn't one of those massive cognitive distortions to be quite easily convinced that we are saviors of others who are distasteful or less good than ourselves?



So, I posed my groans to Anna Stene, formerly in CFalls, now in Brooklyn for three years, and she graciously listened. Between the two of us we played with the topic in the below ping ponging convo:

Instead of focusing on saving others, couldn't it be how do I talk myself from the ledge of non-helpful thinking patterns, etc.? Suddenly that I'm very interested in, but not at all when it has some sort of savior complex, liberal or not.

What if it wasn't a free for all on any arena but we could only talk about areas where we brush up against extremism in our own belief systems and how that impacts our relationships?

...there I see hope and possibility of bridge building if I start with my self and my own mind inclinations and my own relationships. If we all do that together we might get closer to the root of this topic.

If it was about our own tendencies towards extremism and again- maybe disqualify religion and politics - that self reflection could get very interesting or turn into a therapy session

I love that mode of not being righteous or woke, but being real that we are all able to drink the kool aid.

Another angle could be, what happens when I experience it (extremism) in someone else in a personal way (i.e., not religious/political)? Like in a lover or a family member?

So, you see why I've added "ourselves/" to the topic title since you voted. This leaves room for us to keep a sly eye on others while also noting our shared mental processors & social grouping proclivities as we dangle off the ledge of this topic.



Some pre-reading that might be useful to either talking oneself or others from the ledge of distorted cognitions: 

1. The most common cognitive distortions humans are prone to, summarized with examples: https://positivepsychology.com/cognitive-distortions/

2. Research article "Cognitive Inflexibility Predicts Extremist Attitudes": https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2019.00989/full


4. Pop psych. article about how we can all build more cognitive flexibility: https://www.betterup.com/blog/cognitive-flexibility

5. The most to-point article about the original topic posed is from the BBC. This article explores the best ways to help people exit extremist mindsets, which are not the standard ways we tend to employ like judgement, feeling baffled, talking badly about the group they are part of, etc.: "How do you prevent extremism?" - https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190501-how-do-you-prevent-extremism

6. Article "What Do Former Extremists and Their Families Say About Radicalization and Deradicalization in America?":










Wednesday, October 12, 2022

Banter 67: Are you the same person you used to be? For how long will you be the same person you are now?

 

Grow Plant Growth GIF by waywardpencil

Thursday, October 27th at 6pm

at Sabine’s house

Topic:  We’re going with a rendition of Jared’s topic. He wrote in April, "when do we make and when can we break promises we make to ourselves? Are we even the same people in the future?” Looking back at this made me think of the Aug. 26th This American Life episode - Me Minus Me: “When a fundamental part of yourself changes dramatically, are you still who you thought you were?” It’s a compelling episode. Also, the New Yorker just had a neat, related article, "Are You the Same Person You Used to Be?”

Listen to This American Life’s Aug. 26th episode here or wherever you access podcasts: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/778/me-minus-me


Please prep for the topic ahead of time by listening to & reading the above so we can all reference some of the same material outside of our own thoughts and opinions. Thoughts, opinions, feelings, experiences, confirmation biases also welcome, of course, for what would we be without those things.

black and white dance GIF by xavieralopez

Monday, October 4, 2021

Banter 66 - Who is Vivian Maier?

Topic: Who is Vivian Maier?

Date: Saturday, November 13th at 5pm-6:30pm

Location:  Sabine's living room, maybe.  Windows open, masks most of the time?  (Zoom for those who feel uncomfortable with that or who are faraway.)



Self-Portrait, 1954

It might be nice to do a mix of discovering the answer to this question via exploration on our own, and additional exploration / sharing together when we meet up.

A good starting spot could be (choose your own adventure):

A. Watch the 2013 film Finding Vivian Maier (on Amazon Prime, YouTube, AppleTV).
B. Look through some of her 100,000 found negatives (in books, website with her name, etc.). 

Reversing A & B could work equally well. 😊

Then perhaps explore her biography (in books, articles, website with her name) on your own.  This could be step C.

Here's that website with her name: http://www.vivianmaier.com/

Then perhaps sort out some info or musings (could be D.) about the make up and impulse and motivational differences in folks like Emily Dickinson or Vivian Maier who hole up their art like a lot of nuts in a tree, yet whose nuts turn out to be more exquisitely hazelnut and pecan than so many other hazelnuts and pecans that are so much more readily marketed, flounced about, and eaten.  Haha, realize that that last sentence is written by someone who still does not know very much at all about the answer to Who is Vivian Maier?

As you explore the above, please send related articles or materials you found to be cool to Sabine. Those will be posted here a week before we meet for others to check out as more prep material to look over.

When we meet, perhaps we can have some images of her photography up while we talk about all of the above.





Thursday, August 26, 2021

Banter 65 - The Case for Interacting with Time Non-Linearly

Where: at Sabine's backyard (and via Zoom or Facetime for those far away)

When: Sunday, October 3rd 4-6pm

Bring:  a blanket or layers if it is chilly, an extra outside chair if you have it handy, food/drinks to share as you'd like

It is Time” (02020)¹ by Alicia Eggert in collaboration with David Moinina Sengeh. The neon sign was commissioned by TED and Fine Acts for TED Countdown, and driven around Dallas, Texas on October 10th, 02020 to generate action around climate change. Photo by Vision & Verve.



Hello all! 

It is nearly time for us to meet again for banter!  And very likely in person can happen (which it hasn’t since June of 2020 for that one glorious in-person session on Chris’ porch). Those of us in the Flathead would very much continue to welcome those of us outside of the Flathead via Zoom or Facetime, etc. (we can set you up via our iPhones in your own chair?). 

If I may be a tiny bit bossy and choose the topic this first round, I think you’ll all be drawn in by this idea I have for a September topic: The Case for Interacting with Time Non-Linearly. Then, as usual, we can drum up new ideas collectively for October’s banter when we are together at the end of this session & vote.  

And also, who can say "Non-linearly“ with the least fumble? We must surely have a round to test that out. ☺️

Now, we’ve taken on Time before. Back in September of 2016, we met at my house and discussed Perception(s) of Time: http://rippingdiscourse2.blogspot.com/2016/09/banter-24-perceptions-of-time.html  Even our last banter, #64, flirted with time since we were wondering whether or not leisure time was required to produce art. We’ve spoken about mortality, which of course relates to one’s own time or a loved one’s time. Yet, we haven’t talked about Time quite like this yet.  This isn’t meant to be the physics of time, or a new age awakening about time, but is rather meant to help us explore how we do and don’t interact right now with time, creating some further, clearer awareness of how we do, and looking for spots where those interactions are already non-linear, as well as looking to others who value and are sharing non-linear concepts of time and how that might impact us and our daily rhythms, perhaps in nice or interesting ways. 

How long is now? 

Now, Nowadays, The Long Now.

Atomic time. Gregorian calendar. River time. Columbia River Time. North Fork River Time. Whitefish River Time. Midvale Creek Time. Home rivers. Away team rivers. (see Article 1 to make sense of this list)

As ever, take the topic and run with it & if you find some video or podcast or song or poem or piece of art or have a few paragraphs of thoughts that are going to help us get into the nuanced layers of this one, please send them my way.  I will add everyone’s extra thoughts & contributions to the blog a week before we meet up, so we can review ahead of time. 




In the meantime, check out these various links here - two articles, some art images from one of the articles, and a short documentary from the other of the articles.  This should get us going on the case for interacting with time differently than we tend to, or than we tend to say or think we do.  Is there a chance that without knowing it more of us than not often break away from clocks and calendars and super-imposed schedules and find all sorts of variations already in our own ways with time and timing?



Video from above article: https://vimeo.com/460255371


All the Light You See” (02017–02019) by Alicia Eggert. Photo by Ryan Strand Greenberg.



Living in the past.  

Living in the future.  Future-thinking. Living in the present. 

Linear. Circular. Seasonal. Migrational. Swing of the pendulum.

No time. Too much time on one’s hands.  Time for what matters. Time for art. Time for family. 9 to 5. Metronomes & beats & measures. Good timing. Wasn’t the right time. No time like the present.


Can’t wait to see you all.  


Thank you for your time,
Sabine

_____________________________________

Additional materials for prepping:

1. From Isaac:  When Whales Walked: Journeys in Deep Timehttps://www.pbs.org/video/when-whales-walked-journeys-in-deep-time-sn9pvf/  (you'll need to log into PBS to view, I believe)

I don't know what it would mean to say this is nonlinear, but it was spinning round and round in my head for days after my father died

Find 20 minutes when you can just sit and listen. This one is a story, without notes, told live.

And one more short song. Possibly my favorite song that appears to have no decent studio recording of it in existence


Tuesday, May 4, 2021

Banter 64 - Is Leisure Time Required to Produce Art?

Time: May 27, 2021 07:00 PM Mountain Time (US and Canada)



Questions to ponder for your research for submissions and to bring to the conversation:

Does creating art hinge on leisure time, or can the arts be produced by those not fortunate enough to have access to periods of 'peace and quiet'? 

Under what conditions is art most often produced?  What are the exceptions?

When is art more difficult to produce and, historically, have there been periods where large parts of society have not had access to the conditions to produce art? 

If art requires the 'free time and relative peace' does it over-represent those privileged with those conditions and under-represent the more socio-economically or politically oppressed? If 'History is written by the victors' is (most) art created by the leisure class?

Consider all forms of art (music, folk art, visual art, literature, theater, dance, etc.).  Are some forms of art more the realm of privilege than others?

We can likely find examples to support varying positions we might take on the topic - please do bring those particular examples from all corners of the arts, because generalizing will be less interesting. 

----------------------

An overview from Sabine. 

Thanks, Sabine, for these intro materials to get the creative juices flowing!

It may be helpful to read some excerpts from Virginia Woolf, who focused on this problem more in depth than I’m aware of in any other piece of writing or lecture in her (1928) A Room of One’s Own (link). Here are some key excepts: 

 Ch. 6, excerpt: 

 “’What are the great poetical names of the last hundred years or so? Coleridge, Wordsworth, Byron, Shelley, Landor, Keats, Tennyson, Browning, Arnold, Morris, Rossetti, Swinburne—we may stop there. Of these, all but Keats, Browning, Rossetti were University men, and of these three, Keats, who died young, cut off in his prime, was the only one not fairly well to do. It may seem a brutal thing to say, and it is a sad thing to say: but, as a matter of hard fact, the theory that poetical genius bloweth where it listeth, and equally in poor and rich, holds little truth. As a matter of hard fact, nine out of those twelve were University men: which means that somehow or other they procured the means to get the best education England can give. As a matter of hard fact, of the remaining three you know that Browning was well to do, and I challenge you that, if he had not been well to do, he would no more have attained to write SAUL or THE RING AND THE BOOK than Ruskin would have attained to writing MODERN PAINTERS if his father had not dealt prosperously in business. Rossetti had a small private income; and, moreover, he painted. There remains but Keats; whom Atropos slew young, as she slew John Clare in a madhouse, and James Thomson by the laudanum he took to drug disappointment. These are dreadful facts, but let us face them. It is—however dishonouring to us as a nation—certain that, by some fault in our commonwealth, the poor poet has not in these days, nor has had for two hundred years, a dog's chance. Believe me—and I have spent a great part of ten years in watching some three hundred and twenty elementary schools, we may prate of democracy, but actually, a poor child in England has little more hope than had the son of an Athenian slave to be emancipated into that intellectual freedom of which great writings are born.' Nobody could put the point more plainly. 'The poor poet has not in these days, nor has had for two hundred years, a dog's chance… a poor child in England has little more hope than had the son of an Athenian slave to be emancipated into that intellectual freedom of which great writings are born.' That is it. Intellectual freedom depends upon material things. Poetry depends upon intellectual freedom.” 

 Ch. 3 excerpts: 

 “And one gathers from this enormous modern literature of confession and self-analysis that to write a work of genius is almost always a feat of prodigious difficulty. Everything is against the likelihood that it will come from the writer's mind whole and entire. Generally material circumstances are against it. Dogs will bark; people will interrupt; money must be made; health will break down. Further, accentuating all these difficulties and making them harder to bear is the world's notorious indifference. It does not ask people to write poems and novels and histories; it does not need them. It does not care whether Flaubert finds the right word or whether Carlyle scrupulously verifies this or that fact. Naturally, it will not pay for what it does not want. And so the writer, Keats, Flaubert, Carlyle, suffers, especially in the creative years of youth, every form of distraction and discouragement. A curse, a cry of agony, rises from those books of analysis and confession. "Mighty poets in their misery dead"--that is the burden of their song. If anything comes through in spite of all this, it is a miracle, and probably no book is born entire and uncrippled as it was conceived.” 

 “…returning again to my original enquiry into what state of mind is most propitious for creative work, because the mind of an artist, in order to achieve the prodigious effort of freeing whole and entire the work that is in him, must be incandescent, like Shakespeare's mind, I conjectured, looking at the book which lay open at Antony and Cleopatra. There must be no obstacle in it, no foreign matter unconsumed. For though we say that we know nothing about Shakespeare's state of mind, even as we say that, we are saying something about Shakespeare's state of mind. The reason perhaps why we know so little of Shakespeare--compared with Donne or Ben Jonson or Milton--is that his grudges and spites and antipathies are hidden from us. We are not held up by some "revelation" which reminds us of the writer. All desire to protest, to preach, to proclaim an injury, to pay off a score, to make the world the witness of some hardship or grievance was fired out of him and consumed. Therefore his poetry flows from him free and unimpeded. If ever a human being got his work expressed completely, it was Shakespeare. If ever a mind was incandescent, unimpeded, I thought, turning again to the bookcase, it was Shakespeare's mind.” 

Here is a contemporary rebuttal-of-sorts to Woolf’s claim that writers need money and a room of their own, ie mental space: https://electricliterature.com/what-if-you-cant-afford-a-room-of-ones-own/ 

---------------------

FROM ANNETTE:


Hello!  I'd like to use the example of Irina Ratushinskya as an example that leisure is not required.  She was imprisoned for her works and wrote all throughout her time in prison. (Quite the opposite of luxury.)  Here is a quick reference (from Wikipedia):

"On 17 September 1982 Ratushinskaya was arrested and accused of anti-Soviet agitation for writing and circulating her collections of verse.

Between 1 and 3 March 1983, she was tried in Kiev and convicted of "agitation carried on for the purpose of subverting or weakening the Soviet regime" (Article 62). Ratushinskaya received the maximum sentence of seven years in a strict-regime labor camp, followed by five years of internal exile. After being imprisoned three and a half years, including one year in solitary confinement in an unheated cell


while temperatures fell to minus 40C in the winter,
 she was released on 9 October 1986, on the eve of the summit in ReykjavíkIceland between President Ronald Reagan andMikhail Gorbachev.

While imprisoned Ratushinskaya continued to write poetry. Her previous works usually centered on love, Christian theology, and artistic creation, not on politics or policies as her accusers stated. Her new works that were written in prison, which were written with a matchstick on soap until memorized and then washed away, number some 250. They expressed an appreciation for human rights; liberty, freedom, and the beauty of life. Her memoir, Grey is the Colour of Hope, chronicles her prison experience. Her later poems recount her struggles to endure the hardships and horrors of prison life. Ratushinskaya was a member of International PEN, who monitored her situation during her incarceration."